Jürgen Graf interviewed by Radio Islam
(The following is the transcript of a broadcast by Radio Islam local radio 88 MHz in Stockholm on June 16, 1996).
Ahmed Rami: Welcome Jürgen Graf.
Jürgen Graf: Thank you, Ahmed. My name is Jürgen Graf. I am a Swiss citizen. I am 44 years old and speak Swedish. I am familiar with Sweden and glad to be back in Stockholm after many years.
A.R.: So, let me ask you first - You were born in Basel?
J.G.: I was born in Basel.
A.R.: And your parents. They are Swiss, but German-speaking.
J.G.: They are still living in the German-speaking part of Switzerland.
A.R.: I still remember when I visited you in Basel. You took me and your parents to a restaurant. We just crossed a bridge in the same city and then we were in Germany, eating in a German restaurant.
J.G.: I remember that quite clearly. It was in August of 1993. And in order to get to Germany we really just had to cross the bridge.
A.R.: So how does it feel to live so close to Germany, in a border town?
J.G.: For us it's a completely normal feeling. It's nothing special.
A.R.: But since you are German-speaking, what do you feel like most - Swiss or German?
J.G.: When Switzerland meets Germany in soccer I'm a Swiss patriot. In regards to history, I really feel more like a German.
A.R.: And your parents, are they originally from Basel too?
J.G.: My mother was born near Basel. My father was born in Germany. His parents were immigrants who had migrated to Germany for economical reasons. He returned to Switzerland a few years after the war.
A.R.: How many brothers or sisters do you have?
J.G.: I have a sister.
A.R.: Is she older than you?
J.G.: She is four years younger then. She's a teacher like me. She teaches German and French in Basel.
A.R.: And your studies were done in Basel?
J.G.: That's right, but I also spent 8 months in southern Sweden.
A.R.: We will return to that. Right now I am only speaking of your high school education.
J.G.: I finished my studies at the university in Basel. That was in 1977.
A.R.: Once you were finished with high school, did you study in some other city?
J.G.: I studied in Basel but spent a year in England, where I learned English. And after that I spent eight months in Lund.
A.R.: How old are you now?
J.G.: I am 44.
A.R.: When did you become politically aware, or interested in politics? At what age?
J.G.: I would like to answer your question this way: I have always been interested in politics. I read the newspapers. I have read lots and lots of books on politics. But I didn't really become politically aware until 1988, when I returned from Taiwan. I had lived there for five years.
A.R.: You have lived five years in Taiwan?
A.R.: So that means you know Chinese?
J.G.: I speak Chinese.
A.R.: What city in Taiwan?
J.G.: The capital, Taipei.
A.R.: But once you started to become politically aware - you live in a very German city, close to the German border, you were born after the war - once you started to become politically aware, how did you view the tragedy of Germany, the defeat of Germany?
J.G.: Because my father was born in Germany I naturally have many relatives in Germany whom I often visited. They were always instinctively on the side of Germany. I regretted the German defeat in the Second World War. But at the same time I regretted the Holocaust, which I considered the worst European tragedy of this century. I would say that my feelings were divided.
A.R.: To those of our listeners not familiar with Switzerland, there are many languages and ethnicities in that country. There are German-speaking, French-speaking, Italian-speaking. Now in regard to this issue of the second world war, does the French-speaking take the same position as the German-speaking, or the opposite?
J.G.: I would say that the anti-Germanism, the animosity towards the Germans was much more pronounced in the German-speaking part of my country than in the French-speaking. Maybe it's because the German-speaking Swiss are a bit jealous. They bear a certain complex towards the German which the French-speaking Swiss don't.
A.R.: Of what does this complex consist?
J.G.: I would perhaps say that the Germans speak well. The Swiss, when they speak High German, the official German, speak with heavy accent and cannot express themselves easily. And it is possible that this has caused a complex. I don't know.
A.R.: Is it some kind of inferiority complex?
J.G.: One could call it that. An inferiority complex.
A.R.: This political attitude towards the German tragedy, is it related to ethnical divides, or has it nothing to do with languages?
J.G.: I know that during world war one most of the Swiss in the German-speaking part were pro-German. In the French-speaking part most were pro-France. And this has caused tensions between the two groups. As of today there are no longer such tensions.
A.R.: You said that you learned Swedish. You speak Swedish now. Our listeners are probably curious of how you learned Swedish.
J.G.: Let me first speak of my “Damascus” experience. It happened in 1970.
A.R.: So you have been to Damascus, to Syria?
J.G.: No, that was a reference to the Bible. In 1970 I watched a movie by Ingmar Bergman which made a great impression on me. It was The Seventh Seal. I have seen this movie at least five times. I did not only appreciate the movie itself, but also the beautiful, melodic language. So I decided to learn Swedish. And after a year I began studying Scandinavian languages at the university. Mainly Swedish, but also Danish, old Icelandic...
A.R.: And you were granted a scholarship?
J.G.: Yes, three years later I received one from the Swedish government in order to study Scandinavian literature in southern Sweden, in Lund. I have actually read quite a lot in Swedish. As favorite authors I would list Hjalmar Söderberg, Harry Martinsson and also Strindberg. During the last years however I have not had time over to widen my knowledge in this area. And the only books in Swedish that I have read are your books, Ahmed. Some of which I have partly translated to my native tongue.
A.R.: We will get back to your translation of my books. I would like to ask you, for how long did you stay in Lund?
J.G.: I stayed in Lund for eight months, between September '73 and April '74.
A.R.: And before that, did you study Swedish in Basel?
J.G.: I had studied Swedish for two years before that, in Basel.
A.R.: At school?
J.G.: There were courses available at the university, which I took.
A.R.: But that was not that many hours per week?
J.G.: It was one or two hours per week.
A.R.: And then when you came to Lund, did you go straight to literature studies or did you continue to learn Swedish?
J.G.: I went straight to the literature. My knowledge at that time was already sufficient.
A.R.: Where did you live in Lund?
J.G.: I lived in a student dormitory.
A.R.: And before you came to Sweden, what image did you have of Sweden? A negative one or a positive? What idea did you have of Sweden?
J.G.: My view of the country and its people was of course positive. Otherwise I wouldn't have studied the language. I was also curious of how the social system worked in practice. And despite some excesses I still regard the Swedish social system as something rather positive. Social justice has been realized here to a further extent than in most other European countries. I must say that the eight months I spent in Sweden were not very dramatic. But it was a good time.
A.R.: And what about the Swedes as humans?
J.G.: I like them. I have never had a negative experience with a Swede.
A.R.: How would you like to characterize the typical Swede?
J.G.: I would say that the Swede is diligent, honest, frank, perhaps a bit naive. But that should not be taken as criticism. It is really a compliment. They are sober, maybe a bit to sober. That is a characteristic they share with the Swedes. We also share the same shortcomings. Swiss and Sweden have many characteristics in common.
A.R.: And the Swedish literature, how do you find it compared to that of other countries?
J.G.: In my opinion the Swedish literature is among the most interesting in Europe. I have read a lot and I regret very much being unable to take time off for deepening my knowledge of it. But maybe I will once I get older and free of other obligations.
A.R.: Once you returned from your eight months in Sweden, what did you do in Switzerland?
J.G.: I finished my studies. That was in 1977. After that I worked as a teacher at a school in Switzerland. I taught foreign languages, mostly French, but also English and Latin.
A.R.: And then we come to the languages. How many languages do you speak, really?
J.G.: I speak German, English, French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Russian, Greek, and Swedish. Chinese, Danish, Portuguese and Romanian I speak somewhat fluently. I haven't had the opportunity to practice those languages during the last years. Then I also speak some Indonesian and Thai. And I have begun learning Polish.
A.R.: Do you use a certain technique or method in order to learn that many languages?
J.G.: I read a lot and try to use the languages that I've learnt without feeling shy or being afraid of making mistakes.
A.R.: Has growing up in Switzerland, where three languages are spoken, been an advantage to you?
J.G.: No, that is a misconception common among foreigners. In the German-speaking part we use our dialect of German. In school we learn High German. French and Italian, those languages are entirely foreign to us. It is prejudice, a common prejudice, that Swiss people speak three languages perfectly. Most citizens in the western part of Switzerland cannot speak German. They have learnt the language in school but cannot speak it fluently. When they travel to Basel or Zürich and try to speak German they get replies in Swiss German, in dialect.
A.R.: For how many years did you work as a teacher?
J.G.: Initially for five years. Then in 1982 I decided to go to Asia and quit my career as a teacher. I spent six years there in East Asia. I came back to Switzerland in 1988. After some experiences of other types of work I once more began to work as a teacher in 1990.
A.R.: Now since I know you, since you are a friend of mine and we have visited Basel together, I would like to ask you about something. There has been a sort of earthquake, a kind of revolution in your life which has led to you losing your job. I would like you to describe briefly this revolution which has shaken your life.
J.G.: I remember that very clearly of course. It happened in April 1991 when I visited Arthur Vogt, who is now my friend. He is an old man who for many years was the only revisionist in Switzerland. At that time I naturally believed in the Holocaust. Even if I thought the six million figure somewhat exaggerated, all in all I believed in the official version of history. And then I discovered...
A.R.: Which year was that?
J.G.: That was in '91. And then when I discovered that all my life I had been lied to I became very upset. You are right when you describe this as an earthquake in my personal life. It has changed my entire life. After that I came to view the society in which I lived in an entirely different light.
A.R.: But despite this you continued teaching?
J.G.: I continued for two years, all the while writing my first book on the Holocaust. But without letting the students and my colleagues know about it.
A.R.: So you started writing your book in secrecy?
J.G.: Yes, in secrecy. I already worked with Faurisson and some of the major revisionists in the Western world. But with a few exceptions I did not let my colleagues know about it.
A.R.: And you wrote in German?
J.G.: Yes, of course.
A.R.: When did you publish your first German book?
J.G.: Let me first say a few words about this book. After reading the most important works of historical revisionism I discovered that there existed excellent books on particular aspects of the so-called Holocaust, but that there were summary works presenting our arguments in a clear way. So I decided to write this summary myself. I then sent the manuscript to Faurisson who corrected it, because at that time I still did know the subject very well. Then at the end of 1992 we discovered that the book was too lengthy, so I wrote a condensed version called The Holocaust under the Scanner. The longer version, The Holocaust Swindle, was not published until a few months later.
A.R.: So you really published two books in German?
J.G.: The first book in March 1993 and the second one in July the same year. A long book and a condensed one. But they are the same book. It one condensed and one full version of the same book.
A.R.: Was it published by a normal publisher or on your own?
J.G.: I founded the publishing company together with my sponsor, Arthur Vogt, who also financed the whole thing.
A.R.: And how was the reaction to your books?
J.G.: Before I published my first book I informed the principal at the school were I worked. He told me that we have freedom of speech in Switzerland and that it shouldn't cause any problems. But some days later I was fired. Not by the school, but by the local government, which immediately decided to fire me. I filed an appeal, but without success.
A.R.: How was your dismissal motivated officially?
J.G.: I had shown contempt of the tragedy of the Jewish people.
A.R.: Did it literally say so?
J.G.: Yes, “contempt of the tragedy of the Jewish people”. My arguments were not dealt with, of course, because they were not able to do that.
A.R.: If I understand that correctly, does that mean that the Swiss justice and administration could not defend your right to employment, that you should be able to hold the position despite your opinions? You filed an appeal to authorities who are supposed to defend the freedom of speech of the people, and they too have come to this decision?
J.G.: They wrote in their verdict that the authorities no longer had any trust in me and that cooperation no longer was possible.
A.R.: Has there been any pressure, or was there just a feeling that something had happened. Or how did it happen? Did people call the authorities?
J.G.: Well, I don't think because at the time the book had not yet been officially published. And there was no pressure from for example Jewish groups, because the Jews did not know about my group. I am convinced that the authorities by acting like this wanted to avoid a confrontation.
A.R.: A confrontation with whom?
J.G.: The media and the Jews.
A.R.: And so they decided to act by themselves, since they knew what was to expect?
J.G.: Of course this was not the first case in Switzlernad. Maybe you are aware of the Mariette Paschoud case.
A.R.: Maybe you could briefly relate these cases, what happened to these people and why? Then we will return to you.
J.G.: At that time there were two cases of that kind. The first was the Mariette Paschoud case in 1986, where a female teacher from the French-speaking part of Switzerland was fired because she had defended Henri Roques’ book on the Gerstein affair.
A.R.: Henri Roques is a revisionist living in France, is that correct?
J.G.: That is correct, yes. And this caused a huge scandal. I was not in Switzerland at that time. I was in Thailand. But when I came back I heard about the Mariette Paschoud scandal.
A.R.: What does Mariette Paschoud work as?
J.G.: She taught history and French in Lausanne.
A.R.: So she was fired?
J.G.: She was fired.
A.R.: And what does she do today?
J.G.: She is driver. A taxi chaffeur.
A.R.: Where does Mariette Paschoud stand politically?
J.G.: She is right wing oriented but certainly no extremist. She is very religious.
A.R.: And yourself, what political stance did you originally take?
J.G.: I would describe myself as a liberal.
A.R.: And what about the other case?
J.G.: The other one was the Bernard Schaub case. Bernard Schaub was also a teacher, who taught German and history at the Rudolf Steiner school in eastern Switzerland. In 1993 he published a book on the subject of German history where the so-called Holocaust was discussed on only three or four pages. In the book he mentioned the Leuchter report. He also mentioned that Rudolf Höss had been tortured. And this was decisive for his fate. He was fired some months later, when the Jews got wind of the book. So when I published my first book I already knew about the Schaub affair and was aware that I too would be fired.
A.R.: And other cases. Are there any other cases? I remember once when Faurisson visited me and held a lecture.
J.G.: There are many other cases but they don't involve teachers. A friend of mine named G.B. was the head of a political and cultural organization called the Avalon Society. In July 1993 they invited Faurisson to speak in Bern. I was there as an interpreter. When the director of the company where G.B. worked found out that he had organized the meeting he was fired. But in this case there was pressure. The director received anonymous letters threatening him and his company.
A.R.: Who sent those letters?
J.G.: I don't know.
A.R.: What did G.B. work as?
J.G.: He was a representative for a company.
A.R.: What about Ahmed Tobor?
J.G.: Ahmed Tobor is a rather well-known journalist who worked for various newspapers. For many years he was a member of the Social Democratic Party. He is a muslim. He converted to Islam many years ago.
A.R.: He converted to Islam?
J.G.: He converted to Islam already in the 60s.
A.R.: I heard that he was later excluded from the Social Democratic Party due to being a revisionist.
J.G.: But first he was fired from his job as a journalist. The reason was that he had defended Khomeini against Salman Rushdie. So he lost that job. Then he was excluded from the Social Democratic Party, not because of his support of Khomeini, but because of his revisionist views. These cases show that even without so-called anti-racist legislation the government in Switzerland can have inconvenient persons fired from their jobs and inconvenient opinions suppressed. They don't need any laws in order to do that.
A.R.: But now I've heard that there have been laws passed too. So history has been legislated?
J.G.: The so-called anti-racist law came into force in January '95. This law threatens undefined crimes, such as racial agitation, racial discrimination, falsification of history, denial of genocide, and so on, with a sentence of up to three years in prison. But as of yet this law has only been used twice, and in very trivial cases.
A.R.: What cases?
J.G.: There were two politicians from eastern Switzerland who had spoken of “Tamil tourists.” They were sentenced to fines.
A.R.: So you are not allowed to call the Tamils tourists.
J.G.: Yes, that was deemed racist. But these are of course trivial cases. I am convinced that the law first and foremost is directed against historical revisionism. As of yet there has not been any trials involving revisionists. Maybe there will be this autumn. But I don't know yet.
A.R.: But what does revisionism has to do with racism? Because the law you mentioned is directed against racism.
J.G.: I don't know. I can't understand what objective historical research about Auschwitz for example has to do with racism. But they can't say openly that the law mainly is directed against the revisionists. Therefore they have camouflaged the law, in order to make people believe that it is a law which punished racism, racial hatred, and so on. But in reality it is first and foremost a law against the revisionists.
A.R.: But as far as I know there are not many Jews in Switzerland? Why this Judaization of the common opinion? It is strong.
J.G.: There are officially only 20,000 Jews in Switzerland. Their real number is certainly higher than that. But it is not only an issue of their number. It is an issue of their influence, which is very strong in Switzerland.
A.R.: Why is it so strong?
J.G.: It is because the control much of the media. I wouldn't say that the entire press is controlled by the Jews, but the major newspapers are owned by Ringier. This Ringier is not a Jew, but is married to a Jewess. Also, most of the editors in chief of the major Swiss newspapers are Jews. In this way they can easily influence the common opinion.
A.R.: I recently heard about a very large international campaign waged against Switzerland in order to receive money from Swiss banks. What lies behind this campaign?
J.G.: I don't know the details since I don't have the time to read the newspapers. But the Jews claim that there are at least 7 billion...
A.R.: The Jewish World Congress claims?
J.G.: Yes, exactly. They claim that this is money belonging to Jews who perished in the so-called Holocaust. And they say that there are 7 billion or even more. And as far the Swiss have only spoken of 26 million.
A.R.: But has Switzerland decided to pay, has the Swiss banks decided to pay?
J.G.: They are still speaking with representatives of the Jewish World Congress. I don't know which results they have reached, but I am almost sure that they will give in to the extortion.
A.R.: A Swedish writer once wrote in the newspaper Dagens Nyheter: “There will be interest on guilty feelings.”
J.G.: That was very well said. And I believe that the 7 billion they are talking about is not the most important issue. The most important thing for them is to create feelings of guilt among the Swiss. We did not do anything to save the Jews during World War II, and therefore we are guilty, too.
A.R.: But let us return to you. When you published your books you were fired from your job and became unemployed.
J.G.: At first I was unemployed for two months. Then I got in contact with my future publisher. He is the owner of a publishing company. And he asked me two write a book about the Jewish Holocaust eyewitness testimonies. We decided to concentrate on Auschwitz. Then I worked eight months for him, writing the book between 1993 and 1994.
A.R.: Is it a long book?
J.G.: It is a long book. This is my third book. It is really the most boring of them all, but it is the only one which is scientific in the strict sense of the word.
A.R.: The first book was an introduction to the Holocaust in itself.
J.G.: A brief introduction, yes. The second book was a fuller introduction. The third book treats a particular aspect of the Holocaust issue, the eyewitness testimony.
A.R.: Could you briefly describe the contents of this third book?
J.G.: First I would like to discuss why the issue is so important. Few people know that the entire Holocaust history is based exclusively on eyewitness testimony. This is because no German documents exists proving the gassing of even a single Jew. Thus the whole history is based merely upon witness testimony. And we thought it a good idea to collect the most important of the testimonies and analyze them. So I started collecting the testimonies. I visited Faurisson. I visited Mattogno, who today is the world’s leading specialist in the field.
A.R.: From where is he?
J.G.: Mattogno is from Italy. He lives near Rome.
The most difficult part of the work was not to write it, but to collect the sources. To get access to the sources. Many of the testimonies can be found in commonly available books. But not all of them. Sometimes you have to look for documents that are not easy to find.
A.R.: In your first books you provided an introduction, but now you went to the depths of the issue and dealt with what is really the foundation of today's historiography.
J.G.: Yes, it is remarkable that no other author had done that before. Because the testimonies are so important. They make up the foundation of the entire Holocaust story.
A.R.: Now I come to what is really the important question. You, who have studied and researched this, do you believe that the last word has been said about the Holocaust, about the history of World War II? or in other words, do you believe that all research has been done, that everything has been researched and that no-one has the right to research the issue and reach different results?
J.G.: In science the last word on an issue has never been said. In regard to the so-called Holocaust I would say that the negative part of the research is almost finished. This means that we know exactly what did not happen to the Jews during World War II. We can prove that the massive extermination in so called extermination camps has not taken place. But we do not know exactly what really happened to them.
A.R.: As a parenthesis I would like to mention something to those of our listeners who are not knowledgeable about the issue, since you have read and written so much. We have to simplify for the sake of our listeners. Just as an introduction to today's sacrosanct historiography on the Second World War, I will mention its main tenets:
- Hitler had a plan for exterminating all the Jews of Europe.
- Hitler had 6 million Jews exterminated.
- The murder weapon used was gas chambers.
Those are the three main pillars of this historiography, the official propaganda version of history. Now according to your research, regarding the plan, could you tell us first if there was a plan?
J.G.: No, there never existed a plan. If such a plan really had existed there would not have been that many surviving Jews. According to Nahum Goldman, former president of the Jewish World Congress, there were 600,000 Jewish survivors at the end of the war. You must also consider that in some of the countries occupied by Germany, only a small portion of the Jews were interned. In France only 20% and in Italy even less. But if Hitler had really wanted to exterminate the Jews, all of them would have been deported and all of them would have died in the camps.
A.R.: The second pillar: have 6 million Jews been exterminated?
J.G.: This figure is of course absurd, since the Jews living in the territory controlled by Hitler did not amount to 6 million. The best work in regard to this is Walter Sanning’s book The Dissolution of the Eastern European Jewry. There were perhaps three or four million Jews in controlled by Hitler, since a large part of the Jews had escaped to the Soviet Union and other countries. Among the Jews who remained in the German controlled territories the vast majority survived the war. We don't know exactly how many Jews died because of the persecution, but my own estimate is that they numbered about half a million. But I can't provide any exact figure. It is impossible.
A.R.: So according to you, according to your estimates which are based on your research, you have drawn a conclusion, and your conclusion is that no more than 500.000 Jews could have died during World War II.
J.G.: Not significantly more than 500,000.
The Jewish world order's version of World War II history claims that the Germans used gas chambers in order to kill the imprisoned Jews.
I don't think there is any historian today who is ready to defend the theory that the gas chambers existed, in an open debate with a revisionist. Because the whole story is so absurd. There does not exist a single proof supporting it, and on the other hand the revisionists have pointed out that the alleged mass gassings were technically impossible, and that they therefore could not have taken place. Scientifically speaking the whole gas chamber theory is dead.
A.R.: Here is another parenthesis. When it comes to the gas chambers, we at Radio Islam as late as last week interviewed Germar Rudolf, who is a specialist, a chemist and engineer who has researched the history of the gas chambers extensively. And he reached the conclusion that the gas chambers were nothing but a myth, a hoax. The gas chambers have never existed. What is shown today as gas chambers are constructions without a scientific basis. They could not have existed. As David Irving says, chemistry can't lie. But historians can make history out of propaganda.
J.G.: Also, witnesses can lie. So called witnesses are capable of lying.
A.R.: You have mentioned an Italian writer named Mattogno. Could you explain what he has done really?
J.G.: Well, Mattogno has been occupied with the so-called Holocaust for more than 15 years. He is perhaps the world's leading specialist in this field today. His major work concerns the crematories of Auschwitz. There are people who confuse the gas chambers with the crematories. In contrast to the gas chambers, the crematories really existed. No-one contests that. Mattogno has examined how many corpses could theoretically have been incinerated in the crematory ovens at Auschwitz. He has worked on this study for seven years and collaborated with three or four engineers. And he has reached a conclusion.
A.R.: I would like to remark for the sake of our listeners, that there are crematory ovens even today in every town of Sweden, as a way to dispose of corpses. But during the Hitler era, during World War II, crematory ovens were used mostly out of health reasons, because there were so many epidemics. If bodies infected with typhus or cholera were buried in the ground the ground water would be contaminated and other people would be infected. Therefore the bodies were burnt in the crematory ovens.
J.G.: I would like to add that the mortality rate was very high in Auschwitz due to typhus. There were no less than 13 typhus epidemics during the history of the camp. And in order to stop those epidemics the Germans constructed the crematory ovens in Auschwitz. In collaboration with the engineers Mattogno has calculated how many corpses could have been incinerated in all the crematories. And he reached the conclusion that the theoretical maximum figure would be 160,000 bodies. Not 1 million or 4 million as the so-called historians have claimed.
A.R.: In other words, this research was done to see if the figures really were correct. And it was found that the claimed figures were not correct. There are certain limits to how many bodies could be burned in a crematory oven within a certain period of time.
J.G.: That is correct, but on the other hand we have to analyze what the documents say. According to the documents around 160,000 people died in Auschwitz, which correlates to the maximum capacity of the crematories. So we have reached this conclusion using two different methods.
A.R.: But now, since you have for yourself examined the witnesses, the testimonies. They are no real witnesses like in a trial. Much of it is literature, novels, free fantasies and propaganda. When you are speaking of the witnesses you are in reality mostly speaking about literature. Is it not so that literature has been transformed into witness testimony?
J.G.: I have analyzed the statements of the witnesses very carefully, and I would say that in most cases they are only repeating what they have read or heard from others.
A.R.: But could you give us some example of the witness testimonies?
J.G.: I could mention several, but I will have to confine myself to a few especially spectacular cases. Let me first mention Moshe Peer. He was a Canadian Jew who claimed at a meeting a few years ago, that he had been gassed no less than six times. And in all instances he had been the sole survivor of the gassing. Another example is Elie Wiesel who in a book from 1958 wrote about the mass murders and extermination in Auschwitz. In the French version of this book, which is called La Nuit, he never mentions gas chambers even once. He claims that the Jews were exterminated in burning pits. Yet another example is the infamous Dr. Nyiszli, who claims that the Germans killed 26,000 Jews per day in Auschwitz between 1940 and 1944, which would mean a total death toll of 40 million. Perhaps I should also mention the no less famous Kurt Gerstein. He speaks of 700 or 800 Jews locked inside a gas chamber measuring 25 square meters. All witness testimony that I have read and analyzed contains such absurdities. Their evidentiary value is zero.
A.R.: I have also learned that when these false testimonies are translated into other languages the translation itself is falsified. Could you give as some examples of that?
J.G.: Yes, I can mention an especially illuminating example: Elie Wiesel's famous book La Nuit which has been translated into German. I have myself compared the German translation with the French original. In the French version no gas chambers are mentioned, but they appear in the German translation. In every place where the French original text has “crematorium”, the German translation has “gas chambers”. And in this way the content of the book has been falsified.
A.R.: How do you know that?
J.G.: I have read both the French and the German editions. The falsification is very evident in this case.
A.R.: Have you taken note of the pages and passages that have been falsified?
J.G.: I have done that in some cases. Also, a female acquaintance of Robert Faurisson’s has read the book also in Spanish, Italian and English translation, comparing them with the original.
A.R.: And they have also been falsified?
J.G.: No, the English, Spanish and Italian editions are exact. Only the German version has been falsified.
A.R.: So you mean that in the other translations, only crematory ovens are mentioned. Normal things which exists even today here in Sweden. But in the German translation, the readers are led to believe that there existed gas chambers in the German concentration camps during world war two?
A.R.: Into which languages has your first book in German been translated?
J.G.: The first book has been translated into different languages. The French translation by the way was done by Mariette Paschoud. It has become a great success. The book has also been translated into Dutch, Bulgarian and Arabic, but not yet into English.
A.R.: You have written another book?
J.G.: That is my fourth and final book on the Holocaust issue. But only the first half of the book is about this topic. The second half is concerned with other, delicate issues. The book takes the form of a fictive debate between a group of high school students and their teacher. It is in German and called Cause of Death: Research of Contemporary History.
A.R.: Are you preparing some new book?
J.G.: When it comes to the Holocaust I will write just one more book, together with Mattogno. It will be a purely scientifical work on the concentration camp Majdanek in Poland. The reason for this is that there exists no serious literature on that camp. We are preparing a trip to Poland to take place in September or October. After that I think I will have finished my contribution to revisionism. I would like to concern myself with other issues.
A.R.: Some months ago you went to Russia. What did you do there?
J.G.: I have been to Russia several times. During July, August and the winter of '95 I spent in all two months in the Russian archives together with Carlo Mattogno. Russia is especially interesting now since Western researchers have gained free access to the archives. We examined the documents from Auschwitz. There are no less than between 80,000 and 90,000 original German documents of much importance to the researcher. Up until now very few have bothered to go there and examine the documents.
Translated by Thomas Kues
- Since this is a transcription of a radio interview, almost every sentence spoken begins with the conjunction “and” (och in the original). Simply in order to make the text more readable, most of these initial and:s have been eliminated in the translation. As neither the interviewer nor the interviewed are native Swedish speakers, the original text contains a number of passages which are somewhat hard to interpret, due to grammatical errors &c. The translator has opted to correct such unclear passages, as well as obvious linguistic mishaps, rather than to render them into English. This and all other endnotes have been added by the translator.
- This is a reference to the Biblical story of Saul’s conversion into the Christian Paul, found in Acts, chapter 9.
- Hjalmar Söderberg (1869-1941). Novelist, playwright, poet. Among his works translated into English are Martin Birck's Youth, The Serious Game, and Doctor Glas. Harry Martinson (1904-1978). Novelist and poet. In 1974 awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature. Works translated into English include Flowering Nettle, From a Tuft of Grass, and Aniara. August Strindberg (1849-1912). Novelist, essayist, playwright, and painter. Works translated include Miss Julie, A Dream Play, The Dance of Death, Inferno.
- There are in fact four official languages in Switzerland, the fourth being Romansh, a Latin derived tongue spoken by less than 1 percent of the population.
- According to the original transcript in Swedish, Graf says västra Asien, “Western Asia”, but this is obviously incorrect, since Graf lived in Taiwan. Most likely this is a mistake made by the writer of the original transcript (due to phonetic similarity) and I have therefore amended the text.
- Der Holocaust auf dem Prüfstand, Gideon Burg Verlag, Basel 1993.
- This book, Der Holocaust-Schwindel (Gideon Burg Verlag, Basel 1993) has never been translated into English. However, a few years later, Graf wrote an updated similar work entitled Die Argumente which was published in 1997. A translation entitled Holocaust or Hoax? The Arguments was published by Historical Review Press in 1997.
- While not stated, it seems clear that Rami and Graf are speaking of Swiss francs.
- Gerhard Förster.
- Jürgen Graf, Auschwitz: Tätergeständnisse und Augenzeugen des Holocaust, Neue Visionen, Würenlos 1994.
- Walter N. Sanning, The Dissolution of the Eastern European Jewry, Institute for Historical Review, Newport Beach, 1983.
- Germar Rudolf, The Rudolf Report, Theses & Dissertations Press, Chicago 2003.
- Cf. Carlo Mattogno, “The Crematoria Ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau”, in Germar Rudolf (Ed.), Dissecting the Holocaust, pp. 373-413; also see Germar Rudolf & Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz Lies, Theses & Dissertations Press, Chicago 2005, pp. 87-194.
- Cf. Jürgen Graf, “National Socialist Concentration Camps: Legend and Reality”, in Germar Rudolf (Ed.), Dissecting the Holocaust. The Growing Critique of ‘Truth’ and ‘Memory’, Theses & Dissertations Press, Chicago 2003, pp. 284-285.
- For a brief summary of the errors and contradictions found in Nyiszli's testimony, see Germar Rudolf, Lectures on the Holocaust, Theses & Dissertations Press, Chicago 2005, pp. 459-460.
- Cf. Henri Roques, The “Confessions” of Kurt Gerstein, Institute for Historical Review, Costa Mesa 1989.
- Cf. Robert Faurisson, “Witnesses to the Gas Chambers of Auschwitz”, in Germar Rudolf (Ed.), Dissecting the Holocaust, p. 144.
- Jürgen Graf, Todesursache Zeitgeschichtsforschung, Verlag Neue Visionen, Würenlos 1995.
- Jürgen Graf & Carlo Mattogno, Concentration Camp Majdanek. A Historical and Technical Study, Theses & Dissertations Press, Chicago 2003.
- The figure mentioned by Graf refer to the number of document pages, not to the number of individual documents. Cf. “Work in the Moscow Archives”, circular letter from 1995 by Jürgen Graf (Online: http://www.codoh.com/incon/incongrafarch.html )
Additional information about this document
|Title:||Jürgen Graf interviewed by Radio Islam|
|First posted on CODOH:||June 14, 1996, 7 p.m.|
|Comments:||Radio Islam local radio 88 MHz in Stockholm on June 16, 1996|